Is your body confidence holding you back in business, does it matter?
In this Episode we are talking to the lovely Jo Reader.
Jo is a huge advocate of women self accepting their bodies and believes that body confidence has a huge impact on women in business.
You can find Jo at the following places:
Instagram: JO READER | Therapeutic Coach | Bristol (@thebodyempowermentcoach) • Instagram photos and videos
LinkedIn: Jo Reader MBACP (Accred.) | LinkedIn
Website: Jo Reader | Coaching and Counselling
You can keep up to date with the host Helen here:
https://linktr.ee/Helencorsicadmore
Liked this episode? Remember to subscribe and leave a review!
Or if you want to be a guest then contact me at hello@helencorsicadmore.com
Thank you,
Hels x
Transcript
Hello and welcome to another
episode of Fabulous and Female,
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:where today I am super excited to
be talking to the lovely Jo Reeder.
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:Jo is, um, not far from me, just over
the bridge in North Bristol, um, where
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:she lives with her beautiful So excited
because I've actually seen, seen her.
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:Super spirited, seven year
old, gorgeous, bouncy dog.
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:Oh, just love dogs.
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:So this is like even lush, even more
lush to be able to talk about dogs.
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:The seven year old is the child.
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:Seven year old's the child.
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:Yeah.
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:Yes.
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:Yes.
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:Well, okay.
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:We can talk about children.
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:Talk about children.
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:Talk about dogs.
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:But the beauty.
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:Yes.
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:Two very boaksy puppies.
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:She's only two!
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:Yeah.
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:Oh wow.
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:Okay.
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:Looks older.
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:But loves to.
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:Anyway.
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:Let's move on.
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:It's a seven year old gorgeous child.
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:Okay.
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:So, Jo loves her job.
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:Loves being self employed.
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:Um, and you initially graduated, which I
didn't know this until I read your bio,
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:um, with a degree in music, qualifying
as a music teacher a year later.
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:Um, teaching in a secondary school
and then a Young Offenders Institute
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:eventually led her to work for
the local authority supporting
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:families through difficult times.
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:She is now a accredited psychotherapist
turned therapeutic coach, having retrained
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:when you were 34, which I'm going to come
on to that because that's Interesting.
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:Um, you spent two decades confronting
weight stigma, champion, championing,
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:hate that word, body liberation,
writing a master's thesis on weight
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:stigma in therapy, and publishing an
article on fat oppression in the leading
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:specialist magazine for counsellors
and psychotherapists in the UK.
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:You are also hugely passionate about
fostering women's freedom and self
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:acceptance of their bodies, freeing
women of generational trauma of
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:female body shame, and it's an honor
and privilege to be part of this.
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:Welcome, lovely Jo.
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:Thank you, lovely introduction.
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:So that is a very kind of overview,
structure, a little bit of bio about you.
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:What I'd love to know is a little
bit more about you and a bit
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:more about you personally, if
you're willing to share, please.
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:Yeah, for sure.
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:Shall we start with the personal stuff?
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:Yeah, let's do that.
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:Let's do that.
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:It's much more fun, isn't it, really?
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:Oh, yes.
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:There's something about me.
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:Um, so yeah, I've got, as we've
established, got a dog and a child.
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:Um, Uh, they are both very bouncy.
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:Equally as, uh, challenging,
it's not the right word, but
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:opportunist, should we say that?
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:Yeah, spirited is the polite, yeah.
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:Um, but yes, I love dogs, I love
dogs, and it's, uh, yeah, we
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:share that passion, don't we?
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:We do, we do.
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:What is it about dogs that you love?
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:Good question.
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:Um, I think it's their loyalty.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Um, their unconditional love,
like they just, I had a cat before
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:and cats are like, whatever.
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:Not for me.
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:Not for me.
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:Yeah.
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:I fell in love with it.
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:Wasn't my choice to have a cat,
but I fell in love with her.
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:But, um, dogs are just like,
you know, every time I walk
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:into a room, the tail wags.
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:Yeah.
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:I'm excited to see you.
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:Yeah.
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:Like that's being pleased
to be seen every whatever.
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:Yeah.
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:Whatever.
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:Yeah, love that.
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:Okay.
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:So yeah, a little bit more.
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:What else do we want to know about Jo?
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:What do you want to know about me?
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:I love getting to the sea.
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:I need to see the sea.
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:That is where I just feel, um, just
at peace with the world, really.
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:It's a bit indescribable, but it's,
it's a connection with nature.
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:It is, yeah.
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:A dog walk on the sea.
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:Um, on the beach by the sea.
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:Yeah, I love that.
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:Um, you know, I, I knew you'd ask me
some personal things and I, well, the
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:things I jotted down were dogs, crisps.
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:Yes, crisps.
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:Okay.
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:Flavor.
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:Salt and vinegar.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:I think we've had this
conversation before.
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:I'm sure we have.
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:Yeah.
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:It's, it's the only flavor, right?
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:Yeah.
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:Sorry for all the other people.
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:They don't like salt
vinegar, but I'm love it.
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:There are other, well there
are, it's like, you know, there
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:are other brands out there.
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:Salt vinegar are the best.
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:Okay.
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:Uh, yeah.
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:What else?
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:I put log fires.
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:I love log fires.
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:I've got a log fire.
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:Mm.
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:I love a, I love it.
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:I mean, I, I love the summer,
but when the winter comes, I'm.
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:Get some lights and
candles and light the fire.
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:Yeah, absolutely.
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:I love the um, the definite
weathers though, you know, when
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:it's like, when it's really summer
lush and when it's really winter.
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:Brilliant.
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:When it's this in between,
you're like, what's going on?
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:Is it going to snow?
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:Is it going to rain?
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:Is it just like, oh, come on, just let me
put a log fire on and just be all coochie.
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:Yeah, there is something about that
definitely, which is why I quite
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:like winter, because I'm like, I
know when I have that in the desert.
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:It's very cold today, isn't it?
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:It's like, it is.
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:I can light a fire tonight.
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:Great.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:You could put one on now if you wanted.
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:I could.
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:I could.
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:Couldn't you?
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:I do sometimes, like, it feels
very, uh It's very naughty in the
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:middle of the day to put a fire on.
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:Okay, right.
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:Thank you, Jo.
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:So with crisps, uh, dogs, log fires.
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:Amazing.
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:I think the audience know a
little bit more about, um,
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:three things that you love.
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:All very similar to me, actually.
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:That's why we like each other.
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:Okay.
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:So I would love to know,
you retrained at 34.
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:Um, what made you think about
retraining to what you do?
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:Well, I was working for the local
authority, um, working in schools and
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:working with families, um, around,
um, kids who weren't going to school.
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:So going to families and trying to
work out what the problems were.
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:And I realized that I really needed
kind of good listening skills in
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:order to build that relationship and
really You know, let people trust you
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:and then try and find a way forward.
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:I went on a few kind of day
training courses and I was
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:like, Oh my God, I love this.
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:I love this.
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:And I factored around for about 10
years not doing it because I was
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:like, I don't know what course to do.
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:I don't know when's the right time to
retrain and the money and everything.
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:And then, yeah, I just like one
summer, someone just, you know,
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:someone just asked me a question like,
well, how long are you going to wait?
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:And I was like, right, no, you're right.
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:Great question.
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:I know.
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:Yeah.
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:What are you waiting for?
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:Yeah, exactly.
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:It was someone I didn't know.
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:It was like a party, you know,
just, just small, but they got
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:a really good coaching question.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:That's a good point.
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:And the next day I went back and looked
on the, on the internet, it looks up,
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:um, University of Bristol courses and
they just reopened their bookings.
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:They haven't quite got
enough numbers for the year.
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:January instead of September.
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:This was August or something.
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:And I was like, Fantastic.
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:Fantastic.
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:And what did that entail then when you
went to retrain with it, like a number
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:of years, three years, three years.
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:Yeah.
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:Um, yeah, you can just do it in like
two years as a post grad diploma.
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:Inverted it three years.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Part time whilst working.
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:Wow.
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:And then, then you have to have placement.
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:You have to see clients to get that.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:So how did you, how
did you deal with that?
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:I guess that's the right word, isn't it?
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:When you were working full time, did
you, you didn't have your daughter?
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:No, I wasn't, I wasn't a mum then.
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:So that's a great.
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:Yeah.
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:Okay.
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:Yeah.
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:But still, you still have a long
days, like five days working four,
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:went to college a day on a Friday.
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:Yeah.
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:And my clients in evenings.
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:It was a bit crazy.
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:Yeah.
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:And how did you feel when you'd Rechained
and you've done all that for like
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:three years, you know, bloody hardware.
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:It's amazing.
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:Amazing.
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:Yeah.
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:Okay.
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:I mean, I loved it.
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:I loved it.
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:It was absolutely my, you
know, born to do vocation.
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:So I loved the training and, um,
not much of the essay writing,
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:but anyway, um, not for me.
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:I did just love the learning and felt
very proud of myself really redoing,
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:you know, doing that in my head.
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:And, um, uh, and then, and then I, so
part way through, I sort of qualified
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:in the diploma part and, and then I,
so I set up to be self employed after
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:that whilst I was doing the Masters.
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:Yeah.
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:Um, that felt a real sense of achievement.
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:In fact, interestingly, one of the
reasons I wanted to go into counselling,
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:aside from loving it, was so I could
be self employed and get a dog.
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:Yeah, a really big driver, so you
could have the freedom to have a dog.
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:And do you know what though, that's
a, that Jo, is a really, really
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:good reason, because everybody
needs a dog in their life.
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:I'm telling you now, I love that.
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:Love it.
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:Okay.
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:But that was a long time ago now, because
I then met a man who had a cat, so weird.
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:Yeah, I've never had cats.
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:Neither have I.
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:No, I've never had cats.
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:Never in my life.
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:Um, but anyway.
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:Okay.
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:But that's why I now have a dog.
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:That's why you now have a dog, yeah.
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:And that's why they're very
loyal and they wag their tail.
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:Okay.
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:So, interesting though.
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:So, if somebody is thinking
that You know what you were, you
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:know, you, when's the right time?
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:What are you actually waiting for?
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:What would you say to somebody now
if they're thinking, oh, you know,
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:I'd love to be able to do that.
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:What, what would you, what
advice would you give them, Jim?
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:Oh, a few things went through my mind then
was obviously I'd advocate for anybody.
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:If you've got an absolute
passion and you know what you
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:need to do, don't, don't wait.
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:Yeah.
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:I mean, you know, there's got
to be a few practicalities in
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:place, but yeah, of course.
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:Um.
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:I am just so glad I, I did that and
committed to and it was a difficult
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:time in terms of juggling everything,
but, um, the thing is, if you just keep
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:waiting, you'll probably end up doing it
one day and then you've just wasted, you
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:know, all that time when you could have.
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:And it's always.
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:It's like anything, isn't it?
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:The anticipation of something is always
worse than actually once you're in it.
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:Yeah, it was intense, but absolutely.
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:Yeah.
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:And I, and I think the other thing
that went through my mind is like
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:in a sort of coachy councilary sort
of way, you know, you have to be
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:sure it's what you want to do to.
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:You know, because that's what I
was, you know, like, is counseling
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:going to be the right thing?
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:Should I be doing psychology
or should it be music therapy?
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:Because I'm just stalling, not making a
decision, because it is a big decision
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:and a big What if it's the wrong one?
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:What if it's the right one, isn't it?
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:That's why I saying, yeah.
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:What if it's the right?
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:I think that was my procrastination.
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:It's like, I dunno what the right one is.
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:Mm.
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:But yet, you know, it's the child.
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:And that's the thing.
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:Right.
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:I always think that.
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:Do we ever really know until we, until
we do something And now you, like
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:you, you're so passionate about it.
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:What made you take another step back here?
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:What made you, um, leave
the music teaching?
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:Well, this could get a bit juicy.
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:Okay.
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:Share as much or as little
as you can or want to please.
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:All I'll say, as any teachers listening,
you know, that is a very hard job.
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:And there was this sort of defining
point when I was 24, working every
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:Sunday, I had to, that I thought, I'm
not, I'm not going out and living life.
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:Yeah, yeah.
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:I just thought, do you know what?
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:No, because I love working with teenagers.
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:I've worked with teenagers all my career.
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:I love teenagers.
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:And I like working with schools,
but actually being in a school.
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:Yeah.
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:I mean, I think it's just
quite an abusive career.
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:The job is never done.
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:And you're scrutinized in ways not in
the same, you know, so many demands.
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:It's a huge job.
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:Yeah, it is.
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:The amounts of.
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:This is a bit of a soapbox of mine,
but as a parent, you know, the only
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:place really children go, have to go,
predominantly most children go to school.
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:So that's the only institution,
the only professionals ever really
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:see children on a regular basis.
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:And the only people that see parents, um.
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:So true, it never looks really that way.
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:Well, yeah, they are real hubs of like
everything that goes on in a child's life.
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:And yet, you know, teachers are
only trained to teach, I mean I
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:say only, it's a phenomenal job.
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:Yes, oh fantastic, yeah.
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:so much, but you know, there needs
to be bigger hubs than um, just
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:educationalists can deal with so.
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:Yeah, absolutely, so much, yeah.
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:And there's so much these days, and I
haven't brought you on to talk about, um.
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:Teaching, but there's so much these
days that they, they can't do.
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:There's so many restrictions, and you
think, Oh, I'd love to help these a
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:bit more or do something, but there's
so many boundaries, isn't there?
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:And red tape that they just can't do it.
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:So I think, I guess for
you It's an impossible job.
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:And um What do you mean frustrating?
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:I did it for two years.
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:Mmm.
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:I just thought, you know, sod this.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:I love this.
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:I love music, love kids.
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:So that's why I went to go and work in a
Young Offenders Institute as a teacher.
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:It was very different because
we weren't having to follow the
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:curriculum, there wasn't the red tape.
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:Amazing what they could achieve.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Um, that was a challenge.
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:Yeah.
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:I can imagine.
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:Yeah.
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:I've actually interviewed quite a few
teachers who have, who have, um, left.
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:Yeah.
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:And either retrained or just.
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:Yeah, followed a passion and, um, or
fallen into something more accidentally.
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:Um, and I think there's a lot to be
said about how amazing teachers are.
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:I've also got a lot of friends who
are teachers and also a massive
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:credit, I think, to those that
go, you know what, I'm, I'm done.
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:I'm going to walk away.
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:I'm just, I'm just done with it, you know.
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:I know because it is really vocational.
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:People don't go into
teaching just for a laugh.
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:No.
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:You know, because they really believe
in, in teaching the next generation.
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:Yeah.
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:It's very hard to walk away from that.
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:Yeah.
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:You know.
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:It is.
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:Yeah.
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:I, well, I'm saying it
is, I can imagine it is.
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:Um, you spend a lot of time
training to do that career.
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:Um, so that's what I mean.
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:It's, it's very, I give
a lot of credit and.
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:You know, kind of well done to
be able to step away from that
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:and go into something else.
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:Um, which is where I want
to come on to, I guess.
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:So.
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:Jo and I have only kind of connected
fairly recently, haven't we, um,
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:through a mutual sort of connection.
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:And Jo asked a question in a
container that I sort of facilitate.
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:And it, we were just talking
about it before we came live.
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:I don't think about it all day, every day.
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:I don't.
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:But it's, it's something
that really stuck.
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:Yeah, it's really stayed with me.
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:Um, and it was around, I can't remember
the exact question now, but it was around.
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:Um, body and do you think it,
how you feel about your body
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:holds you back in business?
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:And Jo, explain how I kind of reacted when
you thought I couldn't really remember it
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:because I just said, you know, I got this
question how, I can't quite remember the
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:wording either now, how, um, you know,
if you have body insecurities or how much
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:does your body hold you back in business?
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:You were like, Oh yeah.
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:Wait a minute.
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:Yeah.
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:That's an interesting question.
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:Like, it really stopped
you in your tracks.
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:Yeah.
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:And there's not a lot of things that
really stopped me in my tracks, but it
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:got me thinking to how many people this
affects from, A, maybe, um, speaking
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:up, um, staff in a business, uh, I don't
know, speaking on stage, just even being
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:them as a human because of maybe society.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah, absolutely.
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:So, let's just delve into that a bit more.
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:So, I know you said it, just
written down what you're buying.
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:You said it's an honor and privilege
to be in this sort of place.
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:Why is it so important to you?
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:Yeah, great question.
417
:I mean, it is absolutely, you know,
if, if the other stuff hadn't been my
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:life's work, this, you know, this is it.
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:Yeah, I just want as many women
particularly as possible to know that
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:they don't have to feel such shame
around their bodies because of my own
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:experiences and what I've been being
through the journey I've been through.
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:I know what it's like to come out the
other side and it feels like you've
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:opened this door into a world you're
like, wait, this world existed and I
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:didn't, you know, yeah, so freeing.
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:To not worry so much.
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:I mean, it still exists, but not really
about what other people think of my
427
:body or what I really think about.
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:I don't look in the mirror and feel
any kind of shame or hatred or it just.
429
:non existent.
430
:I mean, it was there,
um, it's not anymore.
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:And the, oh my god, there's so much
more space in my brain for other things.
432
:Yeah.
433
:Oh, I love that.
434
:You've released stuff so
you can do other things.
435
:Much more important.
436
:Live your life, yeah.
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:And I just feel very passionately about
how How women are very oppressed by this,
438
:uh, idea that we need to worry about
what our body looks like, um, constantly.
439
:And I mean, I don't say that lightly.
440
:I think most people, I don't encounter
many people who don't have insecurities.
441
:There are people, but I would say
the vast majority of women have some
442
:kind of body hang up and they don't
brush it off as some kind of, well,
443
:you know, it sits there as a concern.
444
:Yeah.
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:And it's often deep rooted, isn't it?
446
:Yeah.
447
:That well, experiences that I know
it's, it's, it's not something that's
448
:just come like, you know, in the
last like six months, it's often
449
:something that's come from childhood,
you know, all of these things, you
450
:know, all of our values, beliefs, our
thoughts always come from childhood.
451
:And I, and I always say this,
I'm not blaming parents or,
452
:you know, things around us.
453
:But actually we take a lot
from those places, um, that's
454
:how we learn to be human.
455
:Yeah.
456
:We are trained and programmed, women,
girls, to not like their bodies.
457
:And again, that's a big
statement, isn't it?
458
:It is, yeah.
459
:But actually, when you think
about what goes on, and this
460
:isn't about parent blaming, it's
certainly not about mother blaming.
461
:No.
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:Our mothers were brought up in, you know,
in a culture that was even more, you know,
463
:you think I often say this to clients,
you don't have to go back very far.
464
:Um, so my grandmother, you know, was
pulled out of school at 14 because her
465
:mother had died to look after the home.
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:And that was the end of that.
467
:Yeah.
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:That's, I mean, that's not very far away.
469
:That's, no.
470
:And that was very, very common.
471
:I know.
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:And so those women brought up our mothers.
473
:Right.
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:Yeah.
475
:That's my dad's mum.
476
:But, um, so they have been,
you know, and that is post war,
477
:inter pentagonal, but yeah.
478
:And the, the kind of things, the pressure
on women's bodies and women's place in the
479
:world would be brought up by women who,
who didn't have that place in the world.
480
:No.
481
:So when you think about bodies, the focus
on bodies, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, all about
482
:being as small as possible, losing weight.
483
:Most, most mothers went
to some sort of diet club.
484
:Yeah.
485
:Oh God.
486
:So even if nothing was said to you as a
child, You see your mum weighing herself,
487
:being upset at gaining weight, being
happy at losing weight, and it's set.
488
:Yeah, and you take on all those emotions,
you see all of those things, you hear
489
:all the things they're saying, and that's
what goes into our brains, right, and
490
:that's what we remember, and that's
what we feel like we should believe.
491
:It goes unquestioned.
492
:It does, yeah, it really does.
493
:And I know that they're I've got
some friends who are now, um, in
494
:the, uh, physical education space.
495
:Okay.
496
:That's what they do, but they are still
very much about, um, educating their
497
:children, their families on, I am doing
this for me, not for anybody else.
498
:Would you say that's, important
that you do things for you?
499
:Definitely, definitely.
500
:I think that helps create a boundary
around it, but it still sends a message.
501
:I mean, it's what they're, when you're
saying physical education, obviously
502
:movement and exercise and stuff.
503
:Yes.
504
:It's good for all bodies.
505
:Yeah.
506
:You know, there's, there's tons
of evidence that, that says that's
507
:the best thing for our health.
508
:I think when we're talking about dieting
and weight loss and weight gain and things
509
:like that, I think if you're doing it and
you're saying, I'm just doing it for me,
510
:it's very hard, particularly for girls, to
not go, well, then I should be doing it.
511
:Yeah.
512
:Okay.
513
:Yeah.
514
:I see what you're saying there.
515
:They're still educating them that this is
what they believe is the right thing to
516
:do, whereas not giving them the choice.
517
:Well, I mean, I think, you know,
you can say with words, can't you,
518
:uh, you don't have to do this.
519
:Yeah.
520
:But I mean, to use a very sort of
strong example of if people, I mean,
521
:a lot of my work is predominantly
around kind of weight stigma,
522
:fat phobia and things like that.
523
:The fear of being fat, even though
I just body image as a, as a general
524
:thing, that is my kind of specialty.
525
:If you are.
526
:Uh, a mother who is constantly trying
to lose weight and losing weight
527
:and being happy around weight loss.
528
:If your child is, is big fat in
any way, or not very slim, how
529
:can they see their body as valid?
530
:If, if their role model is
saying, I am happier and more
531
:positive when my body's smaller.
532
:Yeah, yeah, completely get that.
533
:how it isn't, you're saying
maybe my body isn't as valid.
534
:I just don't know how you get
that message across any other way.
535
:Yeah, that's so true.
536
:So how would you, is there a way that you,
537
:no, let's rephrase that.
538
:So if somebody came to you and
said, Jo, right, I am not confident
539
:in, I don't know, going for a
promotion or going to stand up on
540
:stage and speak because I feel fat.
541
:I, you know, I personally
do not like that word, fat.
542
:I just don't.
543
:It just doesn't sit right with me.
544
:But actually, you know, to the
person, but how, how would you sort
545
:of have those conversations around
that with those people that have
546
:got the fear because of their body?
547
:I would love to go back in a minute to
talk about why I don't like the word fun.
548
:Okay.
549
:Yeah.
550
:Let's do.
551
:Um, okay.
552
:How would I, well, I spent, when
I do my work, I spend a lot of
553
:time understanding people's story.
554
:So, um, I would ask them to, to
tell me more, but what I would
555
:be trying to establish with
someone is what their beliefs are.
556
:Being fat.
557
:Yeah.
558
:It depends whether they feel
fat or are fat, of course.
559
:Okay.
560
:Are they different?
561
:Well, I mean, some people carry a lot
of weight and they're fat and some
562
:people don't carry a lot of weight,
but they feel overweight or they feel
563
:bloated, not slim enough, let's say.
564
:And, and this idea about feeling fat is,
um, I mean, it's not an emotion, is it?
565
:And yet.
566
:It's kind of what people are saying.
567
:They feel a bit, maybe that's
it's stand in for that.
568
:So, of course, if someone was saying,
I feel fat, I would be trying to
569
:unpick what do you mean by that?
570
:Um, I guess there's a very common
perception that fatter bodies aren't,
571
:uh, accepted so much in our society.
572
:So if you are.
573
:Going for an interview or going to
be on stage, there is probably a
574
:worry that you're going to be judged
in a bigger body, um, than in a,
575
:uh, a sort of media ideal society.
576
:body.
577
:I mean, interestingly, you
know, where is this magic sites?
578
:Because, you know, you only need to
look at a magazine or social media.
579
:If you go too thin, massive criticism.
580
:Exactly.
581
:Yeah.
582
:Yeah.
583
:Women's bodies aren't actually
allowed to just be that.
584
:So yes, I would be exploring
with somebody where they've
585
:got these messages from around.
586
:And I'm not, I'm not stupid.
587
:I live in the same society, but yeah.
588
:Messages from around.
589
:Fat not being accepted.
590
:And, and spend a lot of time, you know,
unpacking those beliefs and trying
591
:to decide how much people sign up.
592
:Yeah.
593
:Beneath the surface.
594
:It's really interesting.
595
:People kind of go, well, I don't
really think I think all fat
596
:people, you know, are unacceptable.
597
:I mean, especially when they're
sitting in the room with me
598
:and we do talk about that.
599
:I am a fat.
600
:Let's talk about what you
think about fat people.
601
:Then actually we have a lot of very
fixed beliefs underneath the surface.
602
:Most people don't actually think fat
people are useless or thin or actually.
603
:So yes, they did.
604
:They're not bloody nice people.
605
:That's what I think.
606
:Anyway, it's a, it's very
sweeping generalization.
607
:So when you drill down, people don't
really believe that, but there are
608
:lots of messages we get in society
around, uh, around fat people.
609
:And, you know, I've got some really
interesting, um, kind of quotes around,
610
:I use in, in some of my work about, you
know, fat is the, is the most feared
611
:thing to be for young girls growing up.
612
:They would prefer to be many, many things.
613
:Really?
614
:Yeah.
615
:Do you want me to tell you
about some of these awful?
616
:Yeah.
617
:No, I would.
618
:Yeah.
619
:Take the time to find them because.
620
:That's really interesting.
621
:I've got, um, you know, I've
got, uh, twin daughters who are
622
:going to be turning four soon.
623
:And I, you know, I want them just to be.
624
:So all this education, I, I just soak it
up now because I take in as much as I can.
625
:Yeah, but the thing is, you
know, it doesn't matter.
626
:Obviously in my household there
is, you know, no fat shaming.
627
:It's not, and my child went to school,
there's, you know, hears lots of
628
:different views and comes back and
goes, Are you sure about this, Mummy?
629
:Yeah.
630
:So however much you do at home, you
know, you're still exposed to it.
631
:Exactly.
632
:Yeah.
633
:These are quite, these are quite shocking.
634
:I'm going to read them out to you.
635
:This is a survey of American college
students and it found that they would
636
:prefer to marry an embezzler, drug user
or shoplifter than someone who is fat.
637
:Wow.
638
:Another study between females aged between
18 and 25 found over half would prefer
639
:to be run over by a truck than be fat.
640
:And two thirds would choose to
be mean or stupid than the fat.
641
:Wow.
642
:This is the, this is
the most shocking one.
643
:Um, this was just involving a hundred
women, but one in six said they
644
:would prefer to be blind and obese.
645
:Um, and others would prefer
alcoholism or catching herpes
646
:to being massively overweight.
647
:Wow.
648
:Okay.
649
:They're quite strong
statements, aren't they?
650
:Yeah, they are.
651
:That's true.
652
:But their thoughts.
653
:And they're valid.
654
:They're valid feelings for
somebody, not saying they're right.
655
:No, no, no, but it tells you how,
how strongly people feel about it and
656
:how scared people are of being fat.
657
:And the reason I sort of mentioned those
is that, you know, they're in our society.
658
:So even though personally, when we
actually think about it, we think, well,
659
:I, I'm not prejudiced about people who
are fatter, but in our society, we tend
660
:to assume that people are unhealthy.
661
:I mean, that's a really strong one.
662
:Yeah.
663
:unattractive, that's also high up on the
list, but also unintelligent, unfit, lazy,
664
:you know, out of control, no willpower.
665
:So these are very common,
very common narratives.
666
:So who wants to be thought of like that?
667
:Yeah.
668
:Yeah.
669
:I mean, when you're fat, you get heckled
in the street, people will like, people
670
:will just drive up in their car and go.
671
:Yeah, like that, get some exercise,
you know, the assumptions it is, it's,
672
:and it's so, it's rubbish basically.
673
:And that's the way I'm looking at
it because, you know, we're not,
674
:I just, I just said this phrase on
another, on another recording actually.
675
:And it's, we're not, I'm not
responsible for other people's thoughts
676
:or opinions, but for some people.
677
:That's really hard.
678
:And they can't just
accept that's the norm.
679
:No.
680
:And to get up on stage.
681
:Yeah.
682
:Go on social media and think
somebody might say something.
683
:Because they do.
684
:Yeah.
685
:People do.
686
:And my work is around really, it's about
that self, self worth and trying to find
687
:that kind of way of accepting yourself,
even though society might not, but
688
:also how do you tolerate a society that
might judge you and have comments about,
689
:especially women, you know, brilliant
women and all they, I mean, you only
690
:need to look at our prime ministers.
691
:You know, they, they, if we're
female prime minister, let's
692
:talk about what they're wearing.
693
:Yeah.
694
:Does it, does it actually
matter what they're wearing?
695
:No, I know.
696
:That's a great example, actually.
697
:And there's always those, um, I
can't, I haven't read a magazine for
698
:years, but you know, it was always
like, I see a celebrity on a beach
699
:and like, Oh, look, look at her.
700
:Look, I don't know what there
was one actually recent.
701
:Oh, I say recently in the last six months.
702
:And it was, um, Model
Kate, Kate Moss, Kate Moss.
703
:And she was like, you know, Kate
Moss has always been portrayed
704
:as being very thin as a model.
705
:But she, you know, she, she just
looked like Kate Moss to me.
706
:And it was like, Oh, she's put on weight.
707
:She's getting, I'm going to use the
word fat, but you know, and I was just
708
:like, okay, but that's still happening.
709
:Why do we think that that's
acceptable for people?
710
:Why is it important?
711
:Exactly.
712
:And do you know what?
713
:That's actually a really good question.
714
:Why is it important?
715
:So what would you say to somebody?
716
:I know you're like, you know, you're
a massive advocate for reducing the
717
:amount of body shaming that goes
on whichever way you look at it.
718
:What would you say to those people?
719
:What do you say to those
people that still use?
720
:Those pictures, those phrases,
don't waste my energy.
721
:Yeah, I don't know what so that's
actually a really good, that's
722
:a good way of looking at it.
723
:You know, you can't convert
or preach to people, listen.
724
:I mean I don't mind having
a debate with somebody.
725
:I can imagine you would love that.
726
:I love it, but I also just think
don't, you know, it's all like don't
727
:read the comments, just don't engage.
728
:Um, because just some people don't
want to know, you know, my clients
729
:are people who are like, I feel like
there's another way to see this,
730
:you know, they're up for it already.
731
:Um, but I think, you know, as a
fundamentally, it's a massive distraction
732
:in our society to keep directing women
to worry about these things so that we
733
:don't take over the world or something.
734
:I really do think there's a very, um.
735
:It is a very sexist and misogynistic.
736
:At the end of the day, it's a way
to really control, uh, control them.
737
:Is that, yeah, it's a
strong word, isn't it?
738
:And it's, I think what I feel
passionately about is like, and this
739
:is what my clients say is like, the
freedom is, I've always felt, you
740
:know, it's like this glass ceiling.
741
:I can't quite get any further because
you can, you know, yeah, you've got
742
:to work, work a bit harder and break
through some of these barriers, but.
743
:Don't let the patriarchy say that you're
not allowed and you can't, you know, it's
744
:a whole idea about, I can't wear this
kind of top, I can't wear sleeveless tops.
745
:Somebody might stare or whatever.
746
:I mean, you have to deal with
that, but you can, you can.
747
:That is a classic one, actually.
748
:And family members have said to me.
749
:Can't exactly come at that because of
my bingo wings, or you know, all these
750
:names we give to parts of our body.
751
:And I mean, you can, you can, you
can do whatever you bloody want.
752
:It's how then you deal with
any sort of comments or
753
:repercussions that come from it.
754
:I'm not saying that it's easy.
755
:I'm not saying that.
756
:I'm still not quite there with the bikini.
757
:I don't know.
758
:I just, uh, it's just
a step too far for me.
759
:Many people do.
760
:Isn't it fabulous?
761
:Yeah.
762
:For me, it's a step too far.
763
:But I can, and I will not.
764
:It's, it's a choice I'm making, you know.
765
:Because it just feels, and I think this is
it, this is it, what I do with my clients
766
:is sort of say, make it your choice.
767
:You know, I just think I can't
be doing with the staring.
768
:And you can put a swimsuit on and just
enjoy it because I like getting in the,
769
:you know, getting in the sea and stuff.
770
:Um, so it's a personal choice rather
than I can't wear a bikini, you
771
:know, I can and I will if I want to.
772
:Yeah, absolutely.
773
:Or maybe you just can't yet.
774
:And you, you know, it's not
quite there yet, but you will be.
775
:I think the one that can't is, you
know, yeah, maybe it's a personal
776
:thing, but people are normally saying
it like, you're not allowed, if you've
777
:got wings, you shouldn't show them.
778
:Yeah.
779
:Yeah.
780
:Who says?
781
:Arms come up so much.
782
:I find it so interesting.
783
:Arms, do they?
784
:It's obvious stuff.
785
:Yeah, bums and thighs
and things, but arms.
786
:But I think it's a really natural
evolution of all grannies.
787
:All grannies have really, it's
like, I'm not saying it's normal.
788
:I think it's normal.
789
:Yeah, it is.
790
:It's like, it's like cellulite.
791
:It's really normal.
792
:I read recently, they think I think
it was Vogue who invented cellulite.
793
:I think it was Vogue.
794
:Um, I should check, double check.
795
:Yeah, let's check that.
796
:I will do.
797
:Sorry Vogue, if it's not Vogue, but
if it is, then sort yourself out.
798
:But it was in the like, you
know, 60s or so, I don't know.
799
:I always pull these things
right from top of my head.
800
:But you know, these things have
been invented to I mean, like,
801
:like the BMI is an invention.
802
:It's not a medical measure.
803
:It is an invention.
804
:It was an astronomer who was interested in
drawing up tables of population, you know,
805
:it was never meant to be a health, and it
isn't, you know, it's just another thing.
806
:It's just, it's been made up.
807
:I did not know that because I, and
I'm kind of going like this because.
808
:Uh, when we were trying for, um,
to start a family, you know, we
809
:were going through IVF and you
have to have your BMI measured.
810
:And if it's out of the parameters.
811
:You don't get, you don't get a chance.
812
:And I can see it from some points of
view, from a health point of view,
813
:from a, this is my opinion, right?
814
:From a weight point of view, when you're
trying to really, if, if there is some
815
:loss that needs to be done to potentially
aid, then I think there's nothing wrong
816
:with that, but I did not, I did not know
that BMI was, no, if it does aid, but
817
:actually there's absolutely no evidence.
818
:There's no scientific data.
819
:Says it does.
820
:Yeah.
821
:And this is where I am very much,
if somebody that is in a profession
822
:that I really know nothing about, I'm
not very interested, a doctor says
823
:to me, this is what you need to do.
824
:I'll go, okay.
825
:No, it's just a way of filtering out.
826
:Yeah, see everybody in it's, yeah, I
mean there whole interesting, it's not
827
:time for us to go into it today, but
medical gas lighting around, you know,
828
:the BMI ultimately was adopted in America
where healthcare is paid for and so it's
829
:a way of making more money, insurance
premiums, getting more money from people.
830
:Okay, it's fundamentally racist, it's
important to say, because, because
831
:generally in America, the, the, the
black people that were part of, you know,
832
:those, the medical, medical healthcare,
way more in general terms, black people,
833
:white people are such a general term.
834
:Yeah.
835
:It meant that, that.
836
:Black people could be charged more.
837
:It's just, it's a way of separating
out white and black people.
838
:Wow.
839
:You don't need to look very far
on the internet to look at the
840
:racist, uh, Yeah, of the BMI.
841
:Yeah, BMI and just, yeah, fat.
842
:Very, very, very interesting.
843
:Very interesting.
844
:Yeah.
845
:Um, Jo, does being the size that
you are, you've said, I'm not
846
:saying this, this is your words,
you said a moment ago, you're fat.
847
:Like I said, I don't, I don't like that
word and you can ask me why in a minute.
848
:Um, do you think it does
hold you back in business?
849
:Not, not anymore.
850
:Not anymore.
851
:Yeah.
852
:I mean, because I'm self employed.
853
:I mean, I think at work
when I was, um, employed.
854
:Yeah, maybe.
855
:I don't think people see
fat women as successful.
856
:No.
857
:Yeah.
858
:That women are successful.
859
:But it's not because they're not.
860
:It's not because they're not.
861
:It's funny though, isn't it?
862
:Instantly my head then went to right,
who do I think is successful women?
863
:And I was, I was looking in
my brain for bigger people.
864
:Yeah.
865
:It wasn't the first ones
that came into my mind.
866
:No, because we do stigmatize and
assumptions that because we've got
867
:this rhetoric in society that it's not
healthy and that it's controllable,
868
:then if, if people are not slimmer,
they must be somehow not capable of, you
869
:know, or being too lazy to, you know,
so that's the assumption, isn't it?
870
:Um, So does it hold me back?
871
:I think not.
872
:And obviously, you know, made a
career out of being proud of it
873
:and, um, training people on it.
874
:So, so no, but I, the judgments
are there and I have had clients
875
:in the past who don't come to
work with me around body stuff.
876
:Cause I do other things, um, who will
make quite derogatory comments sometimes.
877
:So.
878
:Yeah, it's hard to know, isn't it?
879
:Interesting, yeah, it really is.
880
:Um, so the word fat, for
me, um, It's hard to say.
881
:Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not
actually, So, I'm six foot tall,
882
:right, and I've always been, always
been called skinny, my whole life.
883
:So for me, it's, it's actually
probably the opposite.
884
:Always being called skinny.
885
:And actually, I'm like,
well, This is just my body.
886
:This is my body.
887
:I'm not fat.
888
:I'm not skinny.
889
:I'm just my body.
890
:Some days I'm bigger than, than
I was a month ago, because that's
891
:the choice that I've made to not do
exercise or not eat particularly well.
892
:So what?
893
:Or actually, it might not necessarily
be connected to that, you know?
894
:Yeah.
895
:Oh yeah, I'm sure there is.
896
:But it's for me, it's like, um, You know
that there's a, there's a correlation.
897
:Yeah, absolutely.
898
:But there's other things that may
or have stopped me doing things
899
:in my business, not because of
weight or anything like that.
900
:So it's, yeah, it's, it's been a
really interesting conversation.
901
:I appreciate we're not going to have
much time left, but, um, for anyone.
902
:But the word fat is, it jolts with you.
903
:I guess it's helped.
904
:Very negative connotations in our society.
905
:Yeah, it has, and it pisses
me right off, to be honest.
906
:It does, it does, because, you know.
907
:There's this whole, I do exercise,
I do feel like I look after myself,
908
:but also, people say you're, you're,
you're really skinny, or you're really
909
:thin, and it's like, well, also, don't
forget, I'm six foot tall, right, so I
910
:can hide a lot of my body because I'm
tall and it kind of just goes down.
911
:Again, I'm being a bit generalistic,
but I know what you mean.
912
:Yeah, you know what I mean.
913
:And I just think, well,
it's interesting, isn't it?
914
:It's the assumptions that people make.
915
:Yes.
916
:With your body.
917
:And actually, and I'll, you know, I make
assumptions too, because when I asked that
918
:question in our container, and you stopped
and paused, I did not expect you to.
919
:Yeah.
920
:It's that expectation.
921
:It is, isn't it?
922
:Yeah.
923
:Yeah.
924
:And actually, for me.
925
:It's not about weight, it's about
other things that kind of go, Oh,
926
:does, does your appearance, does,
you know, me wearing glasses.
927
:Um, these kind of things, does
that hold you back in business?
928
:So we've just kind of brought
up a load of things that how
929
:people perceive themselves.
930
:Yeah.
931
:Or perceive other people, what is
that doing for them in stopping
932
:them doing what they want to do?
933
:Exactly.
934
:And I think just to add to your question
we asked about, does it hold me back?
935
:I think there are times when I don't
think I would go and stand on a stage.
936
:I'm quite happy to kind of be
visible and to do things in.
937
:In person, you know, like, but, um,
yeah, I think, you know, there is still
938
:a fear about the judgments and being,
being looked at and you know that people
939
:are making judgments and some days
I just say, I can't cope with that.
940
:Yeah.
941
:And that's normal though, right?
942
:Isn't it?
943
:You're going to have these feelings and
as long as you, you look at what's coming
944
:up for you that day, in that moment.
945
:Exactly.
946
:Just don't sit in it.
947
:What I often say to my clients is, you
know, this isn't about loving your body.
948
:It's about being more at peace with
it and repairing the relationship
949
:you have with your body.
950
:Yeah.
951
:So there isn't hatred
and shame and hiding.
952
:Um, and, and so that's what I, I'm able
to be much more confident and I can put up
953
:with the comments or the staring mostly,
but some days, you know, I'm just like,
954
:I just, I'm not going to deal with it.
955
:And you're so beautiful Jo.
956
:I can never look at.
957
:The size of somebody.
958
:And I guess this is just me,
you know, I think you are.
959
:And I'm, you know, I'm really
honoured of you to come in
960
:and talk about this as well.
961
:Um, and everyone that knows and listens
to my podcast, I always ask a question
962
:about what's your favourite cake?
963
:Because I love coffee and cake.
964
:That's like one of my
favourite things to do.
965
:Um, so I am going to ask you it,
but I feel like there's going to
966
:be something coming back at me.
967
:Do you have a favourite cake?
968
:Do you like cake?
969
:Well, I have obviously
thought deeply about this.
970
:I mean, you would ask, well, and
then, and what it made me think
971
:was, you know, when you ask.
972
:In fact, people are asked
about food trigger something.
973
:Yeah.
974
:Now it doesn't in me.
975
:However, I, I thought, God, whatever I
answer, I feel like there may be people
976
:thinking, well, of course she'd say that.
977
:Right.
978
:So stop it.
979
:No, I don't, I don't care.
980
:I know, I, but it made me easy
for me to say that though.
981
:Right?
982
:I get it.
983
:One of the things I, I, well, I do, I
don't care what people think generally so
984
:much like, so I don't worry about that.
985
:But one thing I really like about your
podcast is that you do ask that and it's
986
:just really normalizes eating nice food.
987
:Mm-Hmm.
988
:Yeah.
989
:Yeah, some people would be like, oh,
I don't, I don't eat cake very much.
990
:Fine, but you know, it doesn't matter.
991
:Virtuous person, don't eat cake.
992
:Exactly.
993
:It's nothing about how you, how
big you are or how small you are.
994
:Do you want to come for a coffee?
995
:Do you want a bit of cake?
996
:If you don't, fine.
997
:People eat or don't eat.
998
:People, lots of people in
society make judgments.
999
:So if I sat here and said to
you, actually, cake isn't,
:
00:45:15,790 --> 00:45:17,240
I don't eat much cake.
:
00:45:18,075 --> 00:45:19,775
Sounds like I'm trying to be virtuous.
:
00:45:19,845 --> 00:45:20,555
Yeah, I get that.
:
00:45:21,665 --> 00:45:22,795
Crisps are my thing.
:
00:45:23,085 --> 00:45:23,845
Well, okay.
:
00:45:23,845 --> 00:45:27,985
Maybe I'll ask that.
:
00:45:28,775 --> 00:45:30,705
That could be seen as the
same thing though, isn't it?
:
00:45:30,705 --> 00:45:32,085
Crisps is still food.
:
00:45:32,135 --> 00:45:33,745
So exactly.
:
00:45:33,775 --> 00:45:35,665
Well, you can't ever do a podcast.
:
00:45:35,665 --> 00:45:36,645
I think I'll have to do crisps.
:
00:45:37,215 --> 00:45:37,795
Crisps.
:
00:45:37,845 --> 00:45:38,765
It's really important.
:
00:45:40,350 --> 00:45:45,360
To answer the question, I actually, I do
like cake, and it was hard to choose, but
:
00:45:46,070 --> 00:45:48,190
if anything, I would say a Belgian bun.
:
00:45:48,340 --> 00:45:48,750
What?
:
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,560
A Belgian bun?
:
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:53,600
Belgian bun.
:
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,060
You know what a Belgian bun is.
:
00:45:55,060 --> 00:45:55,920
Well, I do.
:
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,219
Nobody's ever said to me, Jo, a
Belgian, that's very specific, that
:
00:46:01,220 --> 00:46:03,980
would be the, do you know if you go in
and there's like all these different
:
00:46:03,980 --> 00:46:08,300
cakes, the Belgian bun would be there
for days, going, somebody please buy
:
00:46:08,530 --> 00:46:10,630
me, and I'd be like, no, not for me.
:
00:46:11,565 --> 00:46:12,005
Love it.
:
00:46:12,065 --> 00:46:12,525
Love the roses.
:
00:46:13,365 --> 00:46:14,245
Bit of icing.
:
00:46:14,305 --> 00:46:14,845
Yeah.
:
00:46:15,555 --> 00:46:16,235
Yeah.
:
00:46:16,775 --> 00:46:17,045
Yeah.
:
00:46:17,905 --> 00:46:18,355
There we go.
:
00:46:18,355 --> 00:46:19,785
That's why everyone's so different.
:
00:46:19,855 --> 00:46:23,355
Jo, you've been an absolute dream and
I hope for anyone that's listening.
:
00:46:23,845 --> 00:46:28,715
You've taken some snippets from what
we've talked about today and thank you
:
00:46:28,805 --> 00:46:32,725
so much again, like I said, for being
open and honest in the conversations.
:
00:46:33,005 --> 00:46:38,015
If anybody is interested in working
with you more around anything that
:
00:46:38,025 --> 00:46:40,175
you do, where can we find you, Jo?
:
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:41,840
So, joereader.
:
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,180
com is my website, everything is there.
:
00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:49,110
And if you want to follow me on Instagram,
I'm the Body Empowerment Coach and I
:
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,340
would love to talk to people about this.
:
00:46:52,450 --> 00:46:53,000
Brilliant.
:
00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:54,290
Thank you so much, lovely.
:
00:46:54,340 --> 00:46:54,970
Thank you.
:
00:46:55,250 --> 00:46:57,950
Have a wonderful day and
I'll speak to you soon.
:
00:46:58,540 --> 00:46:59,000
Okay.
:
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:59,650
Bye.
